Talk: Community portal

Release data of the "original" map series

I saw a lot of "original" map series map item without this parameter infobox.

First problem: base on patch note it seems there is another map series in closed beta, which all the item were wiped in version 0.10.0. The T1 Map of the original series is area level 66, thus making the line in Version 0.9.11c "Level 60 Maps can now drop from monsters in all areas of Merciless Act Two" not quite make sense (it is talking about ilvl or area level? It is still the same map item/icon? is it relvl at the start of open beta?). It is not that possible to trace all release date of the item (either map or other item in Category:Items without a release version), so would 0.10.0 be a good arbitrary point if the item seems already exist in closed beta? (evidence like mentioned in patch note)

Second problem. For the subsequent map series, should the release date parameter use the initial date that the map was introduced, or that map series? (Likes, there is no new map type for a few leagues (last one was 3.1), so we put Map of Harvest map series with |release_version = 3.11.0 or the initial date? Since Template:Item/doc and Path of Exile Wiki talk:Community portal/Archive 7#New map confirm to use initial data but new map export has changed back to splitting the release date behavior. Neokowloon (talk) 15:26, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Consistency issue with Solaris upgrade

Since these are major changes I just want to inform everyone that I created Template:Navbox Pantheon which I hope is okay, and also created all the pages for the souls eg. Soul of Solaris. However one issue has come up with Solaris:

As per our Pantheon database it says that Solaris has 3 upgrades:

• Capture Vision of Justice in Orchard Map
• Capture Eater of Souls in Core Map
• Capture Kitava, The Destroyer in Lava Lake Map

However when you check the capture souls items, there is no such soul for "Vision of Justice", instead you can only find "Captured Soul of The Gorgon", the full list can be found on the navbox:

Therefore this is a consistency issue in our database. Which one is correct? I would think "The Gorgon" because we have an actual item. Anyone has any idea how to proceed with this?

Wonderfl ^(Reply) 11:48, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Vision of Justice is in fact the boss whose soul you need to capture. If you check on poedb, it shows that Captured Soul of Vision of Justice has the same flavor text as . I'm fairly sure that this is an error on the wiki. Captured Soul of The Gorgon was changed at some point to Captured Soul of Vision of Justice, but the article wasn't properly updated. —Vini (t|c) 20:59, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

In each league the boss need to be captured will change, but the metadata id is static. In that case, move the item to the new boss and may be delete the redirect.

And Wonderfl, your template is not helpful. We already had Template:Pantheon which use data mine data. Either you change your template into cargo or you update the template each league Neokowloon (talk) 14:03, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

You call all of my contributions not helpful. I'm getting used to it by now. I'm sure everyone understands that a navbox serves a different purpose than a generated data grid. A navbox is for grouping related content together which I think it accomplishes quite well. Wonderfl ^(Reply) 10:34, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Apart from the redundancy, which I addressed on the navbox's talk page, the navbox seems fine. What Neokowloon is saying is that the navbox will have to be updated every time the captured soul items change. Proliferation of ongoing manual maintenance tasks is a real issue that we need to consider. —Vini (t|c) 11:32, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Steps to create fated items

Hi,

I've created a section for the steps to create Death's Opus, which is a popular fated item. The admin Vinifera mentioned that I should discuss it, as it applies to all the fated items as well.

As a player, seeing "Ingredient: The Bowstring's Music, Death's Harp" in the "Item acquisition" section does not convey any useful information. If I had to redirect a friend who knew nothing about fated weapons to that section, I'm sure he would not be able to create the weapon on his own. Therefore I created the "steps" section to make it easy and accessible to all. This is the justification.

Now as for my proposal, I'm willing to create the same "Steps" section for all the fated items using the information on this page as the primary source, however the community needs to be fine with it. So what say, people, is it okay for me to do so?

Wonderfl ^(Reply) 18:13, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

We already had the prophecy article and the article already had step by step and no need to repeat in the unique item. This is the consensus of wiki editors. Neokowloon (talk) 14:05, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Why do you give your opinion and call it "consensus of wiki editors"? Apart from yourself no one has even replied to this post! Its quite surprising how you constantly misrepresent yourself as "editors" when in fact you are one editor. At least give the other editors/admins a chance to pitch in before declaring "consensus"! Wonderfl ^(Reply) 10:37, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Filtering beastcrafting recipes does not work

I added support in Module:Bestiary for filtering using the param "q_where" but it doesn't work, see:

Aspect of the Avian can be beastcrafted onto rare equipment with an open suffix (an available suffix), using the following recipe:

Why doesn't it work? I used the correct column name and table name and the query looks OK.

Wonderfl ^(Reply) 07:18, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Items prices from POE Ninja

I come from the Runescape wiki which has integrated with the RS Grand Exchange to get upto date prices. This allows very complex maths that ends up being very useful. For example this section here allows us to calculate the cost of various combat boosts (called perks) because we have the pricing data.

So is it possible for us to integrate with Poe.Ninja to get current league/standard league prices for all items? I'm a programmer so I might be able to help with the development effort.

Wonderfl ^(Reply)

It's an interesting idea. I would want to be careful about how it's presented though. The prices on poe.ninja are not facts about the game; they are listing prices scraped from the public stash tab API, if I'm not mistaken. —Vini (t|c) 08:16, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

That is true, sadly there is no factual data of the prices of items. Perhaps we can restrict the usage to only certain categories of items like uniques, or skill gems or a few things like this of course excluding magic/rare weapons and things. Currency/essence/fossil/catalyst/oil/orbs prices are the most stable, and unique prices are OK if you take into account the number of links. Generally a unique will be 10c for <=4L, 1ex for 5L and 10ex for 6L. So maybe we will have to show multiple rates on the wiki (4L, 5L, 6L), or ban uniques completely. But I would like to see some prices coming up, especially for stable items listed below, preferably on the infobox of the item, and also usable in table form where players can sort by price, for example to find the cheapest fossil / essence for their crafting, is one good use. Wonderfl ^(Reply) 11:26, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

In terms of coding, we just need one coded template that can provide the price of a single item. With this alone we can manage all functionality. In RS Wiki we have:

{{Price|Metallic Fossil|2}}

which will get the price of 2 x Metallic Fossil. Later on we can support math:

{{Coins|{{Price|Metallic Fossil}}+({{Price|Dense Fossil}}*2)+{{Price|Powerful Resonator}}}}

which will get the combined prices and then format them with a "coins" icon (Coins template). Perhaps here we'll have to use Chaos orbs as the base, and dynamically switch to Exalt if the value exceeds 100 or whatever the current rate is. Wonderfl ^(Reply) 11:34, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm willing to code it, if you give me literally any info on how to proceed. I can give you the table schema, and the script written in any language. But you'll have to tell me which language and where to write it, whether it will be a hosted script or written right here on the wiki in Lua. We'll have to setup a daily call to that script. Then I'll see libraries that can parse the JSON and read it into MySQL. And then finally the Price check template that will fetch a MySQL record and display the price in Chaos/Exalt. Wonderfl ^(Reply) 11:50, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

So far I have identified 13 categories of items with stable prices - Wonderfl ^(Reply) 11:52, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

On the RS Wiki they use a big fat data file stored right on the wiki as a data source for the item prices. The file is probably updated by another script on a daily basis. Its probably faster to execute than using MySQL although we can use either one... Wonderfl ^(Reply) 11:56, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

unique roll affect the price of the item and poe.ninja often fails to reflect that and usually the first page of search result is full of price fixer (which poe.ninja apparently index it) so the answer is no, it does not really help. Moreover, at league end the item worth 1c is not really the same as the price at league start. Neokowloon (talk) 13:59, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

You don't even read do you, did I ever mention any items that have a unique roll? No. I only mentioned items with fixed/stable prices already LISTED in the link click here. Honestly if you say NO to everything it appears like you don't want anything to change or improve around here. - Wonderfl ^(Reply) 15:20, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Calm down. Neokowloon brought up a very valid point. Although your idea is interesting to me from a technical perspective, I'm still unsure about whether it is really suitable for the wiki to show prices scraped from indexers. —Vini (t|c) 09:26, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Okay, then I will not pursue this further. Wonderfl ^(Reply) 10:31, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't want you to get the idea that you are being shut down. You are still free to discuss it. —Vini (t|c) 11:21, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Haha, thanks Vinifera, but honestly if its not going to be used even for currency/fossils/other categories I mentioned, then it will be a waste of time to develop. Yet, let me know if you are willing to add the prices for those item categories, and I can try to develop it. -- Wonderfl ^(Reply) 06:41, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

I'd like to get the opinions of other editors. —Vini (t|c) 10:58, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

As I only play HC I get a little sad there's no columns for HC prices. :( So there's 8 prices to keep track of. Should we handle the (more popular?) extra 1 month race leagues that goes parallel with them as well, then that's 12 columns. I think implementing on the wiki is quite doable, we have already blobs of data in modules too, see Category:Data_modules, but we would probably store to cargo tables (aka MySQL), then add the columns in {{item table}}. But I think item pricing is too volatile for us and there's also so many clever nerds that will figure out a way to game the system. So it's not only just creating a bot that parses the poeninja data for the next 5 years but the bot will probably need clever algorithms for handling outliers and update the algorithms over time to counter the clever price fixers. Quite a challenging problem that also requires endurance. --Illviljan (talk) 22:17, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Good points. I hadn't even considered the fact that pricing will most certainly vary by league. I was thinking we could do something more along the lines of a little sidebar widget that links out to the item on external websites like poe.ninja and the official trade website. That wouldn't require any bots and it would avoid presenting prices on the wiki in a way that appears authoritative. Vinifera7 (talk) 00:44, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I would say i would agree to add some support to link to official trade site and let player to decide to believe the price of the first page of the search result (or not). There are other price tracking site such as poeprices.info (and there are other site that seem also link to rmt, and those new sites without rmt). I don't like the idea of wiki seems endorsing poe.ninja as the only price checking site. Neokowloon (talk) 11:47, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Content fork

Ok, the content fork issue need to be dealt with.

Divination card drop location in Headhunter article

The step for the PROPHECY in Death's Opus article instead of stay in The Bowstring's Music

"Duping" step of the Blueprint in Fenumal Plagued Arachnid article

List of ALL Delve node in Abyssal Depths (Delve) article, instead of possible one

And this is not the full list of not so constructive edits

Admins , User:OmegaK2, User:Illviljan, User:Vinifera7 are there any consensus that hyperlink exist in this wiki so that no need to copy the same content copy and paste everywhere? Neokowloon (talk) 07:22, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Divination card drop location in Headhunter article

The main issue with listing divination card drop locations on the Headhunter article, as they currently are, is that it might be fairly painstaking to keep up to date. Drop locations for divination cards change from time to time, don't they?

The step for the PROPHECY in Death's Opus article instead of stay in The Bowstring's Music

I'm not opposed to this at all; in fact, I like it. It makes total sense to include a step-by-step guide to obtaining Death's Opus on its own article. A similar treatment could be applied to the other articles for fated unique items, as long as we can come up with a good format.

"Duping" step of the Blueprint in Fenumal Plagued Arachnid article

I'm not sure I understand the issue here.

List of ALL Delve node in Abyssal Depths (Delve) article, instead of possible one

I don't see the problem with this one.

—Vini (t|c) 09:48, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm fine with deleting the section of divination card drops of HH. I was just trying to compile a list / methods of farming HH should anyone try to farm one on their own. I wanted to add steps for Ancient orb HH farming as well but I don't know it and if its out of scope it can be left out. The other sections I feel are useful, like Vinifera said. Wonderfl ^(Reply) 10:33, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Drop information needs to be displayed on several places: the item, the area, the map, the monster and probably a few collection pages. So the headhunter parts needs to be copied to those pages as well. This is unmaintainable, so that's why we use the drop_* parameters in {{Item}} and rely on query tables like {{item acquisition}} to propagate it to all pages. Sure, the query tables can get bulky and hard to read sometimes but I think that's better than the rather high risk of having contradicting info on different pages.

I thought the implicit explanation in Death's OpusDeath's Opus
Death BowBow
Quality: +20%
Physical Damage: (66-98) to (182.6-215.6)
Critical Strike Chance: (6.50%-7.50%)
Attacks per Second: 1.32
Weapon Range: 120Requires Level 44, 107 Dex(30-50)% increased Critical Strike Chance(100-125)% increased Physical Damage
Adds (10-20) to (30-35) Physical Damage
10% increased Attack Speed
+50% to Global Critical Strike Multiplier
Bow Attacks fire 2 additional ArrowsThe overture stretches thin,
The chorus gathers to begin.
Stacatto, drone, a rest drawn long,
Another hears Death's final song. for the Prophecy upgrades in {{item acquisition}} was enough? Do we need to be explicit? The same scaling problem applies here too, we can't maintain two different explanations of how to upgrade the prophecy item. The prophecy text is queryable so we can display it in the item acquisition if we want to but this gets circular and unintuitive.

I'm not really a fan of quick guides such as Atlas quick guide, I don't get what scope is. Is it for speedrunning? Is it a TLDR for the main article, even though they're getting pretty bulky as well? Maintaining the same thing on different places has been proven to not work time and time again and one of these pages will become outdated in two or three leagues. Another example is the Diablo Player's Guide to Path of Exile which has the same idea to TLDR main articles but I think it's mainly outdated. Which one should the reader trust then? Is it really impossible to make the main articles easier to read instead?

--Illviljan (talk) 05:53, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

About pages for map items

There's a page for every single map base from every generation, and it's a mess of nearly identical and not so useful pages. My idea is to instead have a single page for every map base, which would mention legacy versions with old tiers and icons. What do you think, anyone? --OneMore (talk) 21:26, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

I am on board with this. I've been asking why we need a separate page for every map generation for a long time. There's no useful information on any of those pages, so why bother? Vinifera7 (talk) 00:51, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

It is fine to have new article for every map type of the new series, as it is exported by bot. The content should centralized on the main map article (e.g. Siege Map, without blacket for map series) and content is transclusion to child article. However, i think i only fix less than 10 articles so that a lot of content is still left on War of the Atlas / Atlas of Worlds map series map article. E.g. Atoll Map, Atoll Map (War for the Atlas), Atoll Map (Atlas of Worlds) (don't ask me about page history of the wiki article, it really a mess now)

For unique map, well, i nuked quite a lot of map series article as it requires to be manually create at league start . Except seem i also broke The Vinktar Square (disambiguation). Neokowloon (talk) 11:42, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Also, by metadata id, the map since War for the Atlas has the same metadata id and then coded the map series in the item? While Atlas of Worlds, Awakening and Original Map has other metadata id and associated area id. So that it can open to legacy map area if GGG forget to update it. Neokowloon (talk) 12:07, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

The argument for having the variants is that they're still items in the game and there is (a small?) interest in that legacy information. But I agree that it has been a complete mess for a long time. It has made it very difficult to use all the clever options like drop_areas/upgraded_from etc. in the {{item}} template. In general I think the cons outweighs the pros.

I've been wondering if it would have been nicer when the bot does a map update it will copy the data and picture from the main page, Siege Map, to a Maps-namespace, Maps:Siege Map (Delve), then it will update the main page with the new info. Then those pages wouldn't show up in the search bar, the legacy data would rot in piece but still be available and editors would be able to easily add information to the {{Item}}-template. --Illviljan (talk) 13:48, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

yeah, move the infobox out of main namespace seem a solution. Neokowloon (talk) 13:53, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Should we wait for User:OmegaK2 for how to change the bot work in coming bot export for 3.13? Neokowloon (talk) 07:43, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Intead of create the map series version child article for HoG post-Legion, may be i go ahead to nuke the rest of the unique maps and try to fix the main article first, since unique maps have smaller number to fix. Neokowloon (talk) 18:28, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Should be fine I think. Those aren't really handled by the bot anyway. --Illviljan (talk) 22:06, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Headhunter#Divination card sources

There is a long consensus that divination card are handled by Template:Item acquisition and the item infobox template. So, that such Item acquisition section are created semi-automatically. While for the drop source of those card, should be mentioned in the card article itself, which also handled by the two templates mentioned above.

I don't mind the user use the old way to add such manually created section in every single item article (likes, 1000+ articles?) but i don't think there is any merit to make Headhunter to have such manually curated divination card drop section as exception. Neokowloon (talk) 14:39, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Strong Disagree. The merit is that the HH is the #1 chase item in the game, and the purpose of this wiki is to be helpful. Thus, adding info that can help players find/farm HH is definitely a plus point and a valid reason to include extra information such as which maps the cards can be found on. Concerns were raised by YOU about the maintainability, but no one asked you to maintain it. Further the drop sources never (hardly ever) changes. I will maintain it. Do not need to delete anything simply because you don't "agree" with it and ONCE AGAIN wrongly claim "consensus" when it is only yourself that has this opinion. If the admins feel that it is not needed, it can be removed, however I would still feel it improves the quality and the helpfulness of the HH article. Also you say that players can easily click each card article and find out the maps it comes from, but no one is going to conceivably do that, because its too boring, further more each card page has a different way of presenting which maps the cards appear on, making it even harder to spot. Again, you mock my contribution saying you "don't mind the user use the old way to add such manually created section in every single item article (likes, 1000+ articles" however this statement is irrelevant, unhelpful, hurtful, and a pointless argument. No one is saying that maps should be added to "1000+ articles", however, when content has been created that is helpful and useful, there is no need to delete it for no good reason, simply to adhere to some unspecified "manual of style" that is actually your own personal opinion. Wonderfl ^(Reply) 08:18, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Horticrafting in Ritual league Navbox

Neokowloon thinks that the Horticrafting Mechanics do not belong in the Template:Navbox Ritual. I think that it does because it was introduced (also) in the Ritual league, and thus is part of the league mechanics. So what do you guys think? Wonderfl ^(Reply) 08:22, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Are you newbie to this game? Harvest went core and league is temporary. I.e. Harvest is not an exclusive content of Ritual league. I have told you to write something you really know. Neokowloon (talk) 09:08, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Also , you need to know the different between big patch and league... (3.13.X, 3.12.X, 3.11.X are big patches, 3.0, 2.0 are even bigger patch as expansion that add acts; in tradition December big patch is expansion too) Beast capture is re-added in 3.5 but it is not an exclusive content of Betrayal league. The 3.5 expansion has no name so that Betrayal is a good placeholder (and we did betrayed by old master) Neokowloon (talk) 09:11, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

You can rename your navigation template to Echoes of the Atlas to make it more relevant. Neokowloon (talk) 09:13, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

(If you can't figure out what is patch and league, i can told you i never finish act 1 in league and i have harvested at least 3 times in-game in perma league https://imgur.com/a/Woh6Y01 . Just i am not sure you have any interest to work with other instead (like discuss with other to really fix the wiki content. e.g. Talk:Harvest#Rewrite proposal, Talk:Harvest Seed#Purpose of article following 3.13.0 update) Instead of creating your template , new section , new article but does not work with others. )Neokowloon (talk) 09:27, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Also, i really think you are a newbie in the game so that you leave the bad faith comment in my profile. Please just play more the game before editing the wiki, or contribute more on routine fix like every single map article is somehow broken (Like, copy the content from child War of the Atlas / Atlas of Worlds map article back to the parent article and fix the transclusion . Open the wiki source code of some map article you will figure out how to do it) Neokowloon (talk) 09:17, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Wow, your opening statement itself is an insult. So I'm a "Noob" now is it? You have to learn basic manners and learn how to talk man. You are hostile, rude, toxic and unhelpful for no good reason. Just leave this wiki and everyone will be happier for that. Also, no point giving your personal rants on this community forum. This is meant to discuss a specific topic, which is mentioned in the title of the section. I think you are blind because you cannot read, deaf because you cannot understand what I'm saying, and lame because you have no social skills whatsoever. Please refrain from being so hostile in the future, and also STAY ON TOPIC. And allow the other editors pitch in rather than simply ranting a whole wall of unrelated and pointless garbage. Wonderfl ^(Reply) 18:27, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Hydrosphere and Trinity Support

I've created 2 pages Hydrosphere and Trinity Support, the contents of the infobox are mostly correct but many of the entries I could not figure out. If someone who knows the code/has a bot to read all that metadata, please update the infobox on both those page?

My sources:

• https://poedb.tw/us/Hydrosphere
• https://poedb.tw/us/Trinity_Support

Thanks Wonderfl ^(Reply) 05:07, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks to User:Illviljan for fixing these pages and adding the correct content in the infobox and article. This issue is closed. Wonderfl ^(Reply) 07:42, 21 January 2021 (UTC)